10 March 2009
Mike Penning condemns EU proposals to scrap the opt-out of the European Working Time Directive and the devastating affect it would have on firefighting capability in this country.
Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): I thank my Front-Bench colleagues and my leadership—I am also grateful for the understanding of the Chair—for allowing me to speak from the Back Benches this evening on an issue that is very close to my heart and the hearts of my constituents: the future of the fire service in the United Kingdom.
The working time directive will have effects on numerous areas in our communities, but one of the most risky and dangerous is the future of the retained and voluntary fire service throughout the country. We have heard about the concerns of Scotland, but this is not a rural issue or a Scotland or Ireland issue; it is an issue for the whole country. We have, without any shadow of a doubt, the greatest fire service certainly in Europe, if not the world—and I must declare an interest, as I am a former firefighter. I was a full-time firefighter, and a member of the Fire Brigades Union, which was, and still is, quite anti retained firefighters. I understand the reason for that, even if it is somewhat lost in the 21st century; it is a feeling that retained firefighters take jobs from whole-time firefighters. I do not think that is true; we should come to an understanding, based on costs and analysis, of what is right for firefighting throughout this country.
Angus Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is very qualified on this matter; all Members recognise that he has a background in firefighting. What does he think firefighters will make of political parties that stand up in one Parliament and say they are concerned, and then vote a different way, as the Scottish Liberal Democrats did in the European Parliament?
Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman has raised his point on several occasions. All I can say is that the electorate are not stupid, and that communities that are worried about the future of their retained firefighters will know how MEPs voted. I am sure other parties will draw attention to the Liberal Democrats’ record, as well as to how Labour MEPs voted in the European Parliament; they voted to wreck the situation in respect of retained firefighting.
Let us consider the types of firefighters we currently have. We have whole-time stations in London—I understand that it is the only fire authority in the country that does not allow part-timers on to its ground—and we also have whole-time retained and day-manning stations, where whole-time firefighters go home in the evenings but are on call. There are some stations that operate only from Monday to Friday. We also have retained firefighters and voluntary firefighters.
There was something I could not understand when I first looked at the problems facing us: why were we in this country being affected so badly compared with other EU countries? The reason is simple. We pay our firefighters well, whether they are whole-time or retained. It is not a huge amount of money, but they are paid and they get a pension. As a result, our firefighters are completely different from those in the rest of the European Union. Most other firefighters in the European Union who are not full-time are volunteers and they only get expenses—surprise, surprise, Europe looks at them in a different way when it comes to this legislation from how it sees UK firefighters. That is the simple situation. I have heard all the banter going back across the Chamber tonight as to what the reason is, but the facts are there—we trained them, we give them a pension and we look after them in the way that they deserve to be looked after.
There are areas of this country, particularly in Scotland, that have voluntary firefighters, where the community has come together to pay for the firefighters and the equipment to be there and the firefighters get expenses only when they are out on call. They will be exempt from this measure. What I cannot understand is the Fire Brigades Union’s complete lack of understanding as to why it needs to join this campaign that the excellent Retained Firefighters Union has started. The measure will have an effect on the FBU’s whole-time firefighters. I am talking not only about the ones who will be part-time firefighters in the evening or at weekends, or who will be on call on their pagers, but those firefighters who have more than one job.
I have to declare an interest, because when I was a full-time firefighter I had more than one job. At the time, it was illegal, within a whole-time firefighter’s contract, to have more than one job, but we all did it—it was called fiddling. Most of the window cleaners in our communities are firefighters, as are most of the bricklayers, plumbers and so on. The contracts all got changed when a wonderful chap who came out of the Royal Marines became the world boxing champion. He was called Terry Marsh, and the contracts all got thrown out of the window because people quite liked a firefighter being the world boxing champion. In the end, the fact that firefighters should have the right to do more than one job was accepted.
This legislation will have a major effect when it comes in, and the FBU needs to understand the effects on its members as well as on some retained firefighters; the two unions should come together, bury any differences that they have had over the years in different disputes and stand up for the communities that all of these firefighters are looking after and representing. If they do not do so, the whole situation will be one of division. What I am sure every Member in this House wants is to have a firefighting capability in their community that is right and proper for that community, and which is safe and well trained. They also want the firefighters to be remunerated correctly for the services that they give to their community.
What would happen if this legislation were to go through? Why would it decimate so many of the retained firefighters in this country, particularly in the rural areas, but in the urban areas too? My constituency has only one whole-time fire station and two retained fire stations. When my whole-time pump appliances are detained at an incident, the retained firefighters are called out and they stand by at the whole-time station. We see the same thing happening all around the country; it is one of the reasons why even if a major fire is going on in someone’s constituency, there will always be a red fire engine sitting inside their regular whole-time station. That happens because the retained firefighters come in to cover the community, and that is a crucial element to what they do.
What could happen if this legislation were to go through? I know that the FBU feels that we have to have more whole-time firefighters, but we do not have the money for that. No community in the country, especially those in the rural areas, could have regular, full-time firemen covering every single situation. Perhaps the Government will change the legislation again on response times. Recently, some fire stations in my constituency closed because the Government changed the modelling on response times from 10 to 12 minutes. The Bovingdon fire station, which is next to my constituency and was responsible for the second appliance that got to the Buncefield fire in my constituency, was one station that was closed. I am sure all hon. Members recall that fire, which was the largest that this country has seen since the second world war. The vast majority of the firefighters at that fire, dealing with the explosion at that depot, were retained firefighters—90 per cent. of the coverage in this country is carried out by retained, part-time firefighters. I am very worried about what would happen in rural communities and in my community, which is not so rural in parts, in respect of who would provide the cover. I think that the Government believe that the communities will rise up, as they did in past centuries, and put together the fire cover. Perhaps they think that the parishes or the town councils will rise up, as they did historically, or that local companies will provide the cover. Dickinson’s, in my constituency, supplied the fire cover not just for the paper mill but for our local community in Apsley for many years, but those times have gone.
We cannot just rely on volunteers saying that they will do it for nothing if they do not get the training and the skills to work together with the whole-time firefighters. We need cohesion in the fire service in this country and the Government must get their act together and go back to the European Union to say, “Our firefighters are different. You have an excellent system in the rest of Europe that works for you, but our system is different. We pay them and give them a pension, which is right and proper, and because of that this legislation will destroy our firefighting capability in this country. That is wrong.” I stress to the Minister, in a non-party political way, that he should understand how devastating the directive will be for our communities and the fire services in this country.
I call again for the FBU to join the RFU and bury the hatchet. Let us forget about the problems in the past and come together to fight this ludicrous legislation that will destroy our firefighting capabilities in this country.
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Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): I thank my Front-Bench colleagues and my leadership—I am also grateful for the understanding of the Chair—for allowing me to speak from the Back Benches this evening on an issue that is very close to my heart and the hearts of my constituents: the future of the fire service in the United Kingdom.
The working time directive will have effects on numerous areas in our communities, but one of the most risky and dangerous is the future of the retained and voluntary fire service throughout the country. We have heard about the concerns of Scotland, but this is not a rural issue or a Scotland or Ireland issue; it is an issue for the whole country. We have, without any shadow of a doubt, the greatest fire service certainly in Europe, if not the world—and I must declare an interest, as I am a former firefighter. I was a full-time firefighter, and a member of the Fire Brigades Union, which was, and still is, quite anti retained firefighters. I understand the reason for that, even if it is somewhat lost in the 21st century; it is a feeling that retained firefighters take jobs from whole-time firefighters. I do not think that is true; we should come to an understanding, based on costs and analysis, of what is right for firefighting throughout this country.
Angus Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is very qualified on this matter; all Members recognise that he has a background in firefighting. What does he think firefighters will make of political parties that stand up in one Parliament and say they are concerned, and then vote a different way, as the Scottish Liberal Democrats did in the European Parliament?
Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman has raised his point on several occasions. All I can say is that the electorate are not stupid, and that communities that are worried about the future of their retained firefighters will know how MEPs voted. I am sure other parties will draw attention to the Liberal Democrats’ record, as well as to how Labour MEPs voted in the European Parliament; they voted to wreck the situation in respect of retained firefighting.
Let us consider the types of firefighters we currently have. We have whole-time stations in London—I understand that it is the only fire authority in the country that does not allow part-timers on to its ground—and we also have whole-time retained and day-manning stations, where whole-time firefighters go home in the evenings but are on call. There are some stations that operate only from Monday to Friday. We also have retained firefighters and voluntary firefighters.
There was something I could not understand when I first looked at the problems facing us: why were we in this country being affected so badly compared with other EU countries? The reason is simple. We pay our firefighters well, whether they are whole-time or retained. It is not a huge amount of money, but they are paid and they get a pension. As a result, our firefighters are completely different from those in the rest of the European Union. Most other firefighters in the European Union who are not full-time are volunteers and they only get expenses—surprise, surprise, Europe looks at them in a different way when it comes to this legislation from how it sees UK firefighters. That is the simple situation. I have heard all the banter going back across the Chamber tonight as to what the reason is, but the facts are there—we trained them, we give them a pension and we look after them in the way that they deserve to be looked after.
There are areas of this country, particularly in Scotland, that have voluntary firefighters, where the community has come together to pay for the firefighters and the equipment to be there and the firefighters get expenses only when they are out on call. They will be exempt from this measure. What I cannot understand is the Fire Brigades Union’s complete lack of understanding as to why it needs to join this campaign that the excellent Retained Firefighters Union has started. The measure will have an effect on the FBU’s whole-time firefighters. I am talking not only about the ones who will be part-time firefighters in the evening or at weekends, or who will be on call on their pagers, but those firefighters who have more than one job.
I have to declare an interest, because when I was a full-time firefighter I had more than one job. At the time, it was illegal, within a whole-time firefighter’s contract, to have more than one job, but we all did it—it was called fiddling. Most of the window cleaners in our communities are firefighters, as are most of the bricklayers, plumbers and so on. The contracts all got changed when a wonderful chap who came out of the Royal Marines became the world boxing champion. He was called Terry Marsh, and the contracts all got thrown out of the window because people quite liked a firefighter being the world boxing champion. In the end, the fact that firefighters should have the right to do more than one job was accepted.
This legislation will have a major effect when it comes in, and the FBU needs to understand the effects on its members as well as on some retained firefighters; the two unions should come together, bury any differences that they have had over the years in different disputes and stand up for the communities that all of these firefighters are looking after and representing. If they do not do so, the whole situation will be one of division. What I am sure every Member in this House wants is to have a firefighting capability in their community that is right and proper for that community, and which is safe and well trained. They also want the firefighters to be remunerated correctly for the services that they give to their community.
What would happen if this legislation were to go through? Why would it decimate so many of the retained firefighters in this country, particularly in the rural areas, but in the urban areas too? My constituency has only one whole-time fire station and two retained fire stations. When my whole-time pump appliances are detained at an incident, the retained firefighters are called out and they stand by at the whole-time station. We see the same thing happening all around the country; it is one of the reasons why even if a major fire is going on in someone’s constituency, there will always be a red fire engine sitting inside their regular whole-time station. That happens because the retained firefighters come in to cover the community, and that is a crucial element to what they do.
What could happen if this legislation were to go through? I know that the FBU feels that we have to have more whole-time firefighters, but we do not have the money for that. No community in the country, especially those in the rural areas, could have regular, full-time firemen covering every single situation. Perhaps the Government will change the legislation again on response times. Recently, some fire stations in my constituency closed because the Government changed the modelling on response times from 10 to 12 minutes. The Bovingdon fire station, which is next to my constituency and was responsible for the second appliance that got to the Buncefield fire in my constituency, was one station that was closed. I am sure all hon. Members recall that fire, which was the largest that this country has seen since the second world war. The vast majority of the firefighters at that fire, dealing with the explosion at that depot, were retained firefighters—90 per cent. of the coverage in this country is carried out by retained, part-time firefighters. I am very worried about what would happen in rural communities and in my community, which is not so rural in parts, in respect of who would provide the cover. I think that the Government believe that the communities will rise up, as they did in past centuries, and put together the fire cover. Perhaps they think that the parishes or the town councils will rise up, as they did historically, or that local companies will provide the cover. Dickinson’s, in my constituency, supplied the fire cover not just for the paper mill but for our local community in Apsley for many years, but those times have gone.
We cannot just rely on volunteers saying that they will do it for nothing if they do not get the training and the skills to work together with the whole-time firefighters. We need cohesion in the fire service in this country and the Government must get their act together and go back to the European Union to say, “Our firefighters are different. You have an excellent system in the rest of Europe that works for you, but our system is different. We pay them and give them a pension, which is right and proper, and because of that this legislation will destroy our firefighting capability in this country. That is wrong.” I stress to the Minister, in a non-party political way, that he should understand how devastating the directive will be for our communities and the fire services in this country.
I call again for the FBU to join the RFU and bury the hatchet. Let us forget about the problems in the past and come together to fight this ludicrous legislation that will destroy our firefighting capabilities in this country.
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